• Hansard Society (2023), How does Parliament authorise the Government's taxation plans? A procedural guide to the Budget process

• House of Commons Library, Autumn Budget 2026 collection

• Hansard, Financial Statement and Budget Report, 28 October 2026

• HM Treasury, Budget Resolutions, 28 October 2026

• HM Treasury, Budget 2026: in full

• HM Treasury, Budget 2026: Overview of tax legislation and rates (OOTLAR)

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Intro: [00:00:00] You are listening to Parliament Matters, a Hansard Society production, supported by the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust. Learn more at hansardsociety.org.uk/pm.

Ruth Fox: Welcome to Parliament Matters, the podcast about the institution at the heart of our democracy, Parliament itself. I'm Ruth Fox.

Mark D'Arcy: And I'm Mark D'Arcy. And coming up in this week's episode...

Ruth Fox: How to chair the budget debate. Deputy Speaker Nusrat Ghani talks to us the day after she presided over John Healey's big day.

Mark D'Arcy: What happens next with the budget measures, and what should happen next in the Commons Chamber and on the committee corridor.

Ruth Fox: And prayers for chairs. The strange case of Nigel Farage's non-appearance in the budget debate.

Mark D'Arcy: But first, Ruth, John Healey's first budget was [00:01:00] an event, because a budget always is an event, and it was seen as a way of kind of calibrating what the Burnham government was going to be all about. But it was very much, it seemed to me, a steady as she goes kind of budget. Lots of small measures around the edges of issues, tackling particular problems, but not something that delivered some kind of total reset of the British state or some fundamental driving reform of the tax system and the public finances.

None of that. In fact, most of the big decisions that are confronting the government were kicked a bit further down the road. In fact, you could say that the sky is dark with cans being kicked down the road.

Ruth Fox: Yes. I mean, I, I wrote down yesterday, itty-bitty measures. I mean, you could say he didn't upset anyone, unlike some recent previous budgets, so he hasn't visibly upset Labour MPs. There doesn't seem to be many Labour MPs who are exercised about particular measures. He didn't upset the bond market, which perhaps was one [00:02:00] of his top objectives, so tick alongside that. There was concern that he perhaps upset business and the banks. Well, the bank shares went up, so so he doesn't appear to have upset the banks even though he's put a surcharge on them. It was not as big as they'd feared.

He hasn't, it seems to me, done anything to change the big picture here. Sort of the macro approach to the economy. This is not going to go down as like the Lawson budgets of the 1980s that- Mm ... you know, fundamentally changed the direction of economic policy, uh, and the country.

Mark D'Arcy: Yeah, uh, there's a distinct feeling to me of what's known in the trade as the Travolta Micawber strategy- ... which is staying alive and waiting for something to turn up.

Ruth Fox: Yeah.

Mark D'Arcy: And this was a budget that just kept things going, didn't frighten any horses. The absolutely key vote, you mentioned it, was the one delivered by the bond market, 'cause the interest rate charged on government borrowing actually went slightly downwards, which is probably good news, because going slightly down on billions and billions and billions of public borrowing is delivering a fairly substantial [00:03:00] saving.

Ruth Fox: Yeah. There were lots of measures, weren't there, that, you know, tinkering around the edges here and there. Little bits and pieces of measures that will help the cost of living, essentially. I mean, he talked about wanting this to be a breathing room budget.

So there's lots in there for, for different people who will benefit a little bit here and there, particularly the, the £100 support or with energy bills, although to what extent people will really feel it and welcome it in the spring when they're faced with having a bill of an extra £500 as, as is suggested, I'm not sure.

I think the fact that there were a lot of measures but none of them were particularly very big is a signal of the limits of his firepower really in this budget. Yeah.

Mark D'Arcy: And that's one of the things that worries me about this. This is a government with an absolutely massive Commons majority. It could do a huge number of things.

If they're genuinely gonna be worried every time 20 Labour MPs peel off on something, they're going to be paralyzed. A government, if it's gonna govern, has to tank through and rest on its backbenchers sometimes. So that's [00:04:00] the first thing about this. And the second thing about it is that you can only kick the can down the road so far.

By the time we get to next year, we're going to be in the glimmerings of a pre-election period, and it becomes much, much harder. It's next year. Well, indeed. Yeah, so there are people saying that this, this is a budget setting up a spring election next year, and- Yeah ... I'm not entirely sure I buy it. But the longer you wait, the more electoral considerations start to crowd in on your troops, and the harder it is to persuade them to do something radical.

So the time will be running out. Now, the Burnham government has a whole load of events down the road that are supposed to shape its big decisions, the comprehensive spending review, the Alan Milburn review on people not in education or training, the Casey review on social care, the Timms review on social security.

Endless reviews coming along that have the potential To change the direction of big systems. The trouble is that any big reform of something like Social Security or social care needs to be pump primed by [00:05:00] many billions to make sure it doesn't create too many losers and generate too much resistance, and those many billions just aren't there.

It's very hard to be a big reforming government on a shoestring.

Ruth Fox: Yeah, and as we've said on the, the podcast before, if you look at the spending plans, I mean, spending's been going up for departments, but it's, it's scheduled to come down quite significantly in the latter years of the parliament. Now, you can keep pushing that an extra year on, an extra year on, uh, after each fiscal event, but, you know, ultimately that is a road where you run out of credibility at some point.

Mark D'Arcy: At some point you actually, if you're promising savings, at some point you actually have to deliver them, and that is the difficult bit. And this is, I think, where the select committees, the committee corridor, will have a considerable role to play. And I was thinking particularly of the Defence Committee here.

You know, the government is promising to deliver a big injection of funds to get Britain up to the, the NATO target of first 3%, then 3.5% of gross domestic product being spent on defence. The Defence [00:06:00] Committee can measure whether that actually happens. It's very easy to get up at the dispatch box and promise it will happen in the future and point to various complicated mechanisms that will allow it to happen.

But someone actually has to monitor whether in fact that is going to be delivered in the mists of time when we've moved on from the budget. And, uh, the Defence Committee will have to do that on defence. Other committees will have to monitor whether the promised spending cuts are being delivered in their particular areas, and how public services can be delivered in the teeth of those spending cuts.

Because people won't want, for example, the courts to stop working or the police to disappear. So there are all sorts of reasons why select committees should be deeply, deeply involved in what happens next. Now, the interesting question is whether they're actually going to be.

Ruth Fox: Yeah. The thing also that struck me was that he began his speech by saying that the, the country was facing a global economic storm. Uh, I think we all understand that given what's happening in- You've got to feel- ... the Middle East and Ukraine ...

Mark D'Arcy: very sorry for any chancellor who has to try- Yeah ... and deliver an economic strategy when any given morning Donald Trump can wake up- ... and completely up- upend the world [00:07:00] economy.

Ruth Fox: But contrast that with the fact that in this budget, he's borrowing a little bit more.

You know, scheduled to come down later in the parliament, but he's borrowing a little bit.

Mark D'Arcy: It's always scheduled to come down later in the parliament.

Ruth Fox: Yeah. But borrowing a little bit more than was planned. And the headroom, we've talked about the fiscal headroom in the, in the past. You know, that fabled sort of target that they're trying to meet to stay within their fiscal rules.

You've got the headroom. It's come down a bit. Now, again, the markets haven't reacted badly to that. They seem to have bought the strategy, the narrative that the chancellor's advancing. But in the context of a global economic storm and, and considerable uncertainty, and you, you think about what we've been hearing in the last week from the head of MI5, what we've been hearing from the Defence Secretary about preparing for, you know, the threats we face. People-

Mark D'Arcy: Everybody stock up on canned food.

Ruth Fox: Yeah. People have been openly talking about the possibility that we could be at war with Russia in three to four years, or even less. I mean, that, that is a live debate and discussion. The uncertainty around Donald Trump and how he behaves.

I mean, how is he gonna behave and react to [00:08:00] the midterm elections next week? Who knows? But that level of uncertainty, you know, that headroom, one of the reasons you have it is to give yourself a buffer, a cushion for uncertainties. Yeah. Like, for example, we had with, with the pandemic, and that kind of headroom may not be enough to deal with a major crisis.

So that would be a problem. High uncertainty,

Mark D'Arcy: thin cushion.

Ruth Fox: Yes, ex- exactly. And the other thing that struck me about the budget a- across the board was there was just nothing that really gave you a sense that this was a, a government that was dashing for growth. Which was the pitch that certainly at the start of the government in, in 2024, the Labour government Keir Starmer was making, that this was gonna be a government that was gonna go for growth.

There was very little in this budget that suggested that.

Mark D'Arcy: Oh. And, and even more recently than that, Andy Burnham talking about hope. There's hope again. We've got a new prime minister who's ambitious. Well, y- okay, but how long can you keep on saying that against the background of a budget like this, which at best could be considered steady as you go, and [00:09:00] solid, and potentially laying foundations for something in the future.

If you keep on plodding along without anything very much changing, you really are into just sort of managing a very awkward- An increasingly tight financial situation and just hoping something turns up one day

Ruth Fox: Turns up. Turns up, yeah. The other thing I, I was struck with, it's a slightly more politically adept budget in terms of some of the measures.

I mean, that we've mentioned the big support for energy bills, the £100 per household for those who are in council tax bands A to D, I think it is. So it's gonna cover about 80% of the households across the country, about 20 million people. That is gonna be covered by the bank surcharge. He's basically said to the banks, "We're gonna surcharge you 'cause you're doing well.

We bailed you out 20 years ago when things were difficult for you. You're now doing well. You're gonna essentially bail out households to help them with the energy bills at this difficult time." It's pitched as a temporary measure. Whether it will be is, is another question.

Mark D'Arcy: Well, income tax was once a temporary measure.

Ruth Fox: Yeah, quite.

Mark D'Arcy: Sometime in the [00:10:00] Napoleonic Wars.

Ruth Fox: Yeah, quite. We will see, but it was not so bad that the banks recoiled and grin and bear it. Share prices,

Mark D'Arcy: as you say, went up

Ruth Fox: Grin and bear it, yeah. And so he could do that kind of significant measure, which was several billion pounds, but it doesn't have a, a fundamental impact on, on the borrowing because it's coming from a dedicated source.

So I think it was more politically adept in that respect, and the narrative around it was, was, was more adept.

Mark D'Arcy: But there's a telltale there that they had a specific measure that provided the funds for this energy subsidy. Um, what that also maybe tells you is that the fiscal cupboard is increasingly bare for the government.

Yeah. You know, th-they had to spend an absolute fortune keeping the economy afloat during the COVID period. Uh, subsequently, you had the energy price shock from the Ukraine war, and again, a vast amount of government money was spent cushioning people from that. A similar event now, I don't think the government could provide anything like the same kind of cushioning.

No. Next time consumers may have to take it on the chin.

Ruth Fox: Yeah. And, and that's the [00:11:00] concern

Mark D'Arcy: about- And consumers are voters, of course.

Ruth Fox: Yeah. And, and that's the concern about the headroom and, and global economic uncertainty and, and just in terms of the geopolitics we face at the moment. But you said about the number of reviews that are upcoming.

So yes, it's study as you go. Is it study as you go because the plan is to get to next year for an election? It was denied very clearly by Andy Burnham.

Mark D'Arcy: Never believe anything till it's been officially denied.

Ruth Fox: Or is it simply that finances will follow strategy, and the strategy has to be laid out in the 10-year plan, which we're told will be later this year, then you'll have these reviews we're expecting next month, I think the Milburn Review, the Timms Review on, on welfare.

We're expecting, as you say, Louise Casey's review, and then it'll all come to a crunch in the comprehensive spending review. When is the timing of that? Is that gonna be spring or is that gonna be summer? It's not clear. I mean, I think the suggestion initially was it would be spring, but my sense is that that might drift a bit.

Mark D'Arcy: Yeah. I, I would be amazed if it didn't drift backwards because these [00:12:00] things almost invariably do.

Ruth Fox: Yeah. And, and then the question is, do they need another fiscal event? 'Cause if the budge- So last year's budget was November. This year's is October, end of October. Um, can they get through to next October, November without another budget or fiscal event, or will they need something earlier next year?

Now, some of the measures in this statement and in the OBR report, they expire next July. So if they're not gonna be temporary and they do want to keep them, then they'd need some other kind of fiscal statement to renew them.

Mark D'Arcy: And it's always worth remembering that the last chancellor to be called Healey was famous for holding regular mini budgets-

where he was constantly tweaking taxes and expenditure to keep the ship of state on-

Ruth Fox: Yeah ...

Mark D'Arcy: a semi-even keel in the 1970s.

Ruth Fox: Yeah. But as you say, that comprehensive spending review is gonna be so critical, and therefore what the select committees and so on do in the run-up to it and how they interrogate all this financial information they've now got at their disposal is gonna be both critical but really interesting.

Mark D'Arcy: Yes, indeed. Well, it wasn't just a big day for the [00:13:00] chancellor with his debut budget, it was also a big day for Senior Deputy Speaker Nusrat Ghani, who as chair of Ways and Means, we discussed it in last week's pod, takes over the speaker's chair during budgets and presides over the budget debate. We went up to her office, the Chairman of Ways and Means study inside Parliament, and she talked to us exclusively about how she goes about managing one of Parliament's biggest occasions of the year.

Uh, join us for that just after the break.

Nusrat Ghani MP: Order! Order.

Before I call the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I remind honourable members that copies of the budget resolutions will be available to them from the Vote Office in Members' Lobby at the end of the Chancellor's statement and, of course, online. I also remind honourable members that interventions are not taken during the Chancellor's statement, nor during the replies of the Leader of the Opposition or the leader of the Liberal Democrats.[00:14:00]

I call the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir John- Right Honourable John Healey, Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Mark D'Arcy: Nusrat Ghani, Deputy Speaker, Chairman of Ways and Means, fresh from chairing the Budget statement and the ensuing debate, welcome to the pod.

Nusrat Ghani MP: Thank you so much for having me. I, I love your podcast, so I'm pleased to be here.

Mark D'Arcy: That's very kind of you. Now, you chaired, by ancient tradition, the Budget statement, and there's a moment where Prime Minister's Questions ends, the Speaker gets out of the Speaker's chair, and you get into it, and then the whole process begins. I just wondered about that moment. Does the Speaker mutter, "Good luck" as you go past?

Nusrat Ghani MP: He does. Yes. So the the Speaker was keen to make sure that Prime Minister's Question Times don't run over, but obviously he has to manage that in the moment. And I'm just standing behind the Speaker's chair, so I need to absorb the energy in the chamber because you've got no idea. The energy this year was different to last year because last year there'd been so many [00:15:00] leaks, and there was the OBR leak in the morning.

So I wanted to be in the chamber a little bit early, got there about 12:20, to take in the mood of the chamber. Also, I was trying to look at some of the pinch points where the naughtiest MPs may be. And I worked out which, which was the last person Mr. Speaker was calling, and then I sort of... I was on the left of the Speaker's chair, and Mr. Speaker got out, and as he always does, wished me luck, and you know, made sure I was gonna get a new fresh glass of water to get me through the next four-hour stint. And I stood there, and then I opened up the package that I get from the Treasury, which is the speech, and obviously the budget, because I see that first thing in the morning, but I, I get it again, and I open it up, and then I breathe, and then it begins, and then you've got no idea what's going to happen.

In a sense, you don't, y- you know, you don't know if people are gonna stumble over their words or if someone's gonna behave completely out of character. Uh, and I'm thinking not only about managing the chamber, but I know people are watching at home, so I'm thinking, "Is it too noisy for them? If it gets too noisy in the chamber, can they hear what the Chancellor is saying?"

So bits and pieces like that. I do [00:16:00] see the speech in the morning. I read it very quickly, and in my mind, I'd sort of worked out where I think the highs and lows were going to be, 'cause you wanna prepare for that. And I kind of worked out who may be making the most noise at any particular point, so I'm looking at that point in the chamber.

My style is to look at people before they say and do anything, and if they know I'm watching them, it kind of manages it a little bit. But the Chancellor's very different to the last Chancellor, and this is the third time I've done this, so, and the first time for him, so you're just trying to work out, how do I make sure the Chancellor is heard?

How do I make sure the, the Leader of the Official Opposition is heard? How do I make sure the leader of the Liberal Democrat Party is heard? But also, you don't want to create a dynamic where people feel they can't be themselves either.

Mark D'Arcy: So you talk about the energy in the chamber. There you were standing by the Speaker's chair for PMQs, listening to it, watching proceedings.

So what was the energy of the chamber? What was your kind of calibration of it?

Nusrat Ghani MP: Well, compared to last year it felt less pressured. Last year, before I even sat down in the, the Speaker's chair, the [00:17:00] then Shadow Chancellor Mel Stride was shouting for a point of order. Um, he, he'd been doing it, I think, prior.

So that, I had to make a split-second decision whether to take that point of order or not, and, and that would've changed the dynamic completely because a chancellor has the, sort of pattern they want to behave towards. So the pressure was exceptionally high. Last year when I went in, I had government whips trying to talk to me, shadow whips trying to talk to me.

I did not have a moment's peace of people trying to tell me what had happened or what hadn't happened and what should happen. This time, people weren't trying to talk to me at the same time. It was much, uh, I would argue, slightly quieter chamber than, than last year. I think the Chancellor has a very different energy.

He hadn't been out so much himself on the airwaves, even though there were some stories in the press. So it was a very different dynamic, but it changes. It changes in the chamber, and it can change over a split second. And you have to have absolute control. You can't prepare for it. It's just a skill you've just got to lean into.

Ruth Fox: Do you rehearse? So, do, you know, do, uh, you, you said that you get the budget [00:18:00] statement in the morning, you get an opportunity to read that. Are you briefed by anybody on sort of the detail?

Nusrat Ghani MP: I, I'm never alone with a budget. I have fantastic clerks who are just super, best in class, I think, around the world, the clerks on the parliamentary estate.

I read it quickly. I'm, you know, like a regular person, I'm also thinking what it means for me and my family, obviously. But I'm reading it to work out where the highs and lows are. Now, in my mind, I knew there would be points that would create a huge amount of energy, you know, if you touch on things like defence or farming or welfare.

There are things that you know, and there were other bits in the budget as well. There was, uh, stuff around supporting small breweries and things. So in my mind, I'm thinking there's there may be a moment of calmness, and then I'm gonna look over this side of the chamber because I know this person's been the most vocal, just to keep an eye on them.

So there's nothing you can really rehearse other than I'm trying to work out if I'm going to be there for four hours, for example, and the first hour and a bit, uh, how do I make it as easy as possible for the Chancellor to get his statement out, and of [00:19:00] course, enable MPs who are there in their capacity to represent their constituents to be as representative as they can be, but be respectful and ensure the Chancellor is heard.

So in my mind, I'm trying to look around the chamber the whole time. The difficulty is you can't, I can't see behind myself, and there's always a caucus rump of MPs that are slightly behind the Speaker's chair. You, you can't see. And also, people move around. Normally, people sit in a similar space, but they can move around.

And then the Chancellor says things that people are very positive about in the chamber, and you want to be able to make sure that is reflected as well. Lots of people are looking at me to manage the chamber because I would... They wanna hear the, the Chancellor more. They actually want the Chancellor to be drowned out. So they're looking at me. I have lots of eyes on me, people trying to see what I'm doing so they know how to conduct themselves as well.

Mark D'Arcy: And there were a few moments when you had to deliver the smack of firm government. I, I was struck, for example, when Luke Evans, Conservative MP and doctor, you at one point admonished him to keep a bit quieter, and you said, "You have to write yourself your own prescription."

That had me thinking of John Bercow's catchphrase about, you know, "The Honorable Gentleman must take a soothing medicament." Oh, God. [00:20:00] And that was when the smack became a slap. You know, the, your tone was different.

Nusrat Ghani MP: Gosh, I, I don't know what to say after that John Bercow thing. Um, I mean, I was a backbench MP when John Bercow was in the chair.

And the first few times I spoke in the chamber as a backbench MP, it's really quite hard. And I think at the time, John Bercow was quite, quite raw with some of the comments he made to me, and I didn't think it helped my confidence at all. And I don't want anyone to be admonished to the point they feel they can't come back into the chamber, for them to lose their confidence.

And sometimes when I look at the, my team show me the clips when I come out the chamber, or my family send me the clips, and I'm thinking, "God, did I actually say that?" And, um, but it, it was fine. The reality is that Dr. Luke Evans is a really stellar doctor, and, you know, Luke is energetic every time he's in the chamber. He's in the chamber a lot. And there were moments I thought he was gonna jump out of his own skin. It was like, "Come on, we've got, we've got hours to go. Calm yourself down a little bit." So I, I need to keep people in their place. I don't like raising my voice, in the sense I think people should know before I get to that point, but I, I don't want them to feel so awful they feel they can't come back in.[00:21:00]

I know it's a very serious business. It's a very serious but lots of MPs are elected and, you know, their, their passion points were raised in that chamber at that point. But yes, Luke is a doctor and, um, I, I said what I said, and I'm sure he'll take it on the chin and he'll behave the next time I see him in the chamber.

It won't last for long because MPs aren't, uh, fabulous at behaving for long periods of of time. But yeah, that did happen yesterday.

Ruth Fox: It was charmingly humorous rather than patronising, I think.

Nusrat Ghani MP: This is the point. It's trying to get the tone right. Again, its to get the tone right because, you know ... And also, I think actually the Chancellor was a bit more relaxed than maybe I would argue Rachel was last year.

Um, and it was ... There we go. The bell's going because we're starting business for, for Thursday morning. And I was watching the Chancellor the whole time, making sure that, you know, he was comfortable and watching his tone and his body language as well. And also just making sure that I could hear what he was saying and thinking, can they hear at home what he's saying as well? We don't want it that noisy, but you don't want it so sterile that there's no sound whatsoever.

Ruth Fox: Are you conscious when you're sitting [00:22:00] there of the history of this, this position? Because as we explained on the podcast last week, listeners, the reason you chair the debate rather than the Speaker dates back centuries, because the Speaker used to be regarded as the King's placeman, and they wanted a more independent voice to chair debates over whether or not the public, the, the citizens were going to have taxes raised on them. Are you conscious of that history and, and why you're in the chair?

Nusrat Ghani MP: I, I am, and I, I find that quite weighty. And my job, I mean, I'll be one of many people that transition through this role, is to, uh, ensure the, the credibility of that position remains. I cannot tell you how important Parliament is to me and the kind of parliamentarian I am and the campaigns I've fought for in the past, how important it is for me to protect Parliament and liberal democracies like ours.

And we've got some of the most historic, but I would say most powerful processes that enable anyone that's elected to office and, um, ends up in, in Parliament to represent their constituencies, and [00:23:00] I think that's incredibly important. I think it is remarkable that we have a Parliament where the Chancellor has to come to the House and put forward a statement, and there's nothing he can do about it until MPs vote it through. That's incredibly powerful.

We have MPs, you know, we are spending all of our time dealing with potholes or some other fantastic things locally, but we are here to scrutinise government spending. So it's a major key moment, and MPs are incredibly important and incredibly powerful. And the fact that, you know, the Speaker was shut out of this one process because he was seen as too close to the King, and the independence, the independence of the chairman is absolutely vital. Uh, that is something, that is a weight that I carry and something I wish to protect.

Mark D'Arcy: And your role doesn't, as I understand it, stop just with that debate. You, you are in charge of shepherding through the Ways and Means resolutions that change the taxes and change the duties and all the other things that the budget [00:24:00] does, all the way through the continuing process that ends up with a series of votes next week.

Nusrat Ghani MP: First of all, I'm supported by fantastic clerks, by the way, and the Speaker and the Speaker's Office. But you're right. We've got, uh, resolutions will be discussed over four days. Votes will come on Tuesday, and then it goes into Committee Stage, and the Chairman of Ways and Means chairs the Committee of the Whole House There's the bell again. We've just had prayers, and we're about to go into session now.

So there'll be a Committee of the Whole House, and there'll be a private committee too. Um, I'm just thinking about the process last year. So we had the budget last year in November, and it became the Finance Bill around December, and then made its way over to the House of Lords I think around March the 17th, and on March the 18th it became the Finance Act and got the Royal Assent.

And this is the other unique piece of business that we do. Because the independence of the Commons and our right and role over taxation, it's very rare that the House of Lords makes any changes. So eventually, if last year started in November, ended up in March, this year [00:25:00] we may become the Finance Act around February.

So it is a long process. So what we see on yesterday, on budget day, is just the first day, um, but the whole process takes a, a few months before it becomes, uh, the Finance Act, and I'll be working with my, my clerks and Speaker's team to make sure the process is managed.

Ruth Fox: And as we're sitting here, today is the second day of the budget debate.

There's two days next week. For this debate, and indeed for others, how do you decide who to call and when?

Nusrat Ghani MP: Um, well, we, we don't talk about who or when we call openly because it's a... Uh, people put in to speak, they put in to speak to the Speaker's Office, um, and we try and make sure that we get as many people in to contribute as we can.

It's a live event. I think people find that hard to understand. You know, MPs can come into the chamber. If they're there for the opening. You know, they can bob throughout the day and try and catch, um, the eye of myself, uh, my fellow deputies, or Mr. Speaker to try and contribute throughout the debate.

Mark D'Arcy: Bobbing, here, is the process of rising up and [00:26:00] down in your seat.

Nusrat Ghani MP: Yeah. So, you know, if you think about it, like yesterday we had... The chamber was packed, and the way that a, a Member of Parliament can indicate that they wish to speak is to rise, to stand up and sit down, and we, we write down their names. MPs may wish to contribute and bob, stand up and sit down, and they may make a few interventions and decide they don't want to make a far more substantial speech, or they may have other business to attend to.

I mean, there are other debates happening in Westminster Hall. There are things happening in committee. MPs are involved in private meetings. But it's a live event, so the decision is taken in the moment, as it were, and you walk into the chamber and you think you may know who you may want to call because they've indicated they want to speak, but then you've got to rearrange that depending on who is there.

And also yesterday we, we finished business at 7:00, so you can't always get everybody in. If they want to contribute again, we try our very best. We know MPs are keen to make sure their constituencies are put on the record with the speeches they wish to make.

If I can just broaden out this conversation we're having, what I have noticed with... every Parliament is [00:27:00] different, and this Parliament was extraordinary. It had so many new MPs elected, so a lot of new MPs wishing to contribute wholeheartedly. So my reflection is there are many more people wishing to contribute day in, day out than I remember, uh, not only in the main chamber, but in Westminster Hall as well.

I take care of Westminster Hall with my team and the Speaker's team, and I remember when I was a minister, for example, if you were doing the adjournment or a debate at a particular time of day, the chamber would not be that full. The chamber is busy all the time, Westminster Hall is busy all the time, and that's been a new dynamic, I would say, over the last two years.

Mark D'Arcy: It's such a big occasion, of course. There's a lot of pressure to get into the very limited seating available in the chamber. So how does that work?

Nusrat Ghani MP: Well, you know, historically, it was a day that MPs came in dressed in their finery, and I think if you saw Sir Desmond Swayne's outfit, you'd notice that.

So they, it's a big day for lots of MPs. They queue very early. We have a system in the Commons [00:28:00] chamber where you have, uh, a card, and you write your name on the card. You pop that in the, the slot. There's a little, little slot behind the chair. You pop it in the slot. You come back for prayers, and then you obviously go through prayers. And then that's, you're sort of carded, as you were, and you can have your seat there. But you're right that you have to queue quite early. The chamber is jam-packed, so you are sitting incredibly close to your colleagues next to you, but, uh, that is the process. You, you come in early, you queue, you put down a name card, you come in for prayers, and then you get squashed between whoever you're sitting next to. And then you're sitting there, 'cause you really, you know, nobody really moves until the Chancellor sits down, and normally they don't move until the, uh, the Leader of the Official Opposition and the Leader of the Liberal Democrats. You're there for quite some time, which is why you see people sitting in the gangway as well. There's people sitting on, on the stairs and standing on the side, which then also drives up the energy and atmosphere, whether people like it or not.

Mark D'Arcy: And when you say come in early, I mean, are we talking, what, 7:00?

Nusrat Ghani MP: I think so. There have been colleagues who've even [00:29:00] queued up even earlier. I'm just trying to remember back in the day when I was a backbencher.

I think we, people used to meet quite early for breakfast and be standing outside to try and get carded to come in because they, obviously, um, especially if it's a new government, they want to make sure they're showing and willing and sitting and supporting, and they don't want to wait. And you don't want to be standing, especially if you're in heels, for, like, two hours, do you?

Mark D'Arcy: You've attended budget debates as a backbench MP, as a minister and now as Chairman of Ways and Means. I imagine there's something new you learn at each step through that in each of those different roles.

Nusrat Ghani MP: I've been a backbencher, squashed on the backbenches, bobbing and, you know, not being called.

I've been a backbencher where, you know, we were in government lobbying for a particular project or something regionally and waiting for your region or your constituency to be called out or a project.

I've been a minister, where you campaigned to get your sector, your portfolio funded, and [00:30:00] gone through the whole process with the Treasury, knocking things back and bringing them forward and just waiting for your department or your portfolio getting the support that it's needed. Squashed on the front benches. There's never enough seating in the chamber.

And then now seeing it from the perspective of the chair, I think that's what gives me probably a unique perspective. I know what it's like on the backbenches, I know what it's like on the front benches. I know the pressure on both sides to be called to speak, waiting for funding to be delivered, hoping that your area or your project, you know, your passion project or your constituency is covered as well. So, yeah, I've seen it from all perspectives.

But I must say, every budget is different. You know, the first budget I did with Rachel was different to the second budget she delivered. And yesterday, the Chancellor, John, that was a very different budget, you know.

And it's hard to explain to people because most, most people's jobs, there's a level of certainty. But in politics, there isn't that guaranteed level of certainty. And in, and the Chamber is a live event, and every day is different.

Ruth Fox: One of the things we don't see when we're watching the House of Commons [00:31:00] is the meetings that you have with the Speaker every morning and the Clerks to go through the business and think about what may unfold during the course of the day. What are those pinch points that you refer to? What, you know, what sort of urgent questions the Speaker is going to select, what Ministerial Statements are coming in.

Can you just explain, without, obviously not going into the confidentiality of it, but with just the broad outline of what is the purpose of that meeting and who attends and, and what sort of things are you looking out for in business that you've got to think about, look ahead to the day, what might be a concern?

Nusrat Ghani MP: We meet every morning to go through the previous day to work out, you know, what went well, what we could do even better, anything else we need to just be more conscious of the following day. And also, we're in the chair at different points and, and colleagues are talking to us, just making sure that we are just communicating effectively as a team, to be honest, and how we can help each other and help- colleagues have the best experience and just make sure the House can be the best of itself the following day as well.

Because we [00:32:00] all, you do a long stint, you, you crack on, we're all still constituency MPs, you're cracking on with constituency work, and then you might, you might not see each other at the end of the evening, so it's really nice to meet in the morning and just to reflect on the, the last day, go through the day ahead, anything else we need to be conscious of coming forward.

Mark D'Arcy: Now, we're talking to you today in the Chairman of Ways and Means study, and it's a rather splendid room in Parliament that's lined with photographs of former Chairman of Ways and Means. And as I look up here, I can see a couple of people, Horace Maybree King- ... and George Thomas, who went on to be Speakers.

And so I find myself thinking, did you, do you see this in any sense as being a bit of an audition? I was struck that when you were in the Chair, you were, you were dressed to the nines. You, as a Sussex MP, you had a tie with martlets on it and so forth. I mean, Lindsay Hoyle did very well out of chairing budgets in the John Bercow years.

Is there an element here of auditioning?

Nusrat Ghani MP: I mean, I wear the uniform that my predecessors have worn for hundreds of years. I find it interesting that there's so much commentary that a woman's wearing a uniform [00:33:00] that the men have worn as Chairman of Ways and Means.

Ruth Fox: It's the tie.

Nusrat Ghani MP: The tie. Women do wear ties, folks.

And I would wear more ties, but we, we wear black every day. Women do wear ties, you know, and women can manage a, a chamber. I don't think that's anything new. I take each day as it comes. It's a major moment in the parliamentary calendar. I am very nervous in the morning and the night before, and I just want to make sure that nothing goes wrong, and the rest is for the House to decide, you know?

This is the... You know, you just want to make sure that the House thinks the day went well, we crack on with business. Parliamentary politics moves so fast. I'm just going through each day at a time, and then going back to my constituency.

Mark D'Arcy: Speaking personally, I mean, how important is it for you to be the person in the Chair on a, a big occasion like that?

Nusrat Ghani MP: It, it's incredibly important. So first of all, we grew up, um, watching either Margaret Thatcher in the Chamber or Betty Boothroyd, and I didn't grow up in a household where I interacted with women who worked outside the home, so to see strong women [00:34:00] was a good thing to see. And for me, the, the uniform I wear is the uniform that lots of men that have worn as Chairman of Ways and Means, but it was incredibly important for me to try and get to the most, the sort of historic version of the uniform.

Um, for someone that isn't born in this country, to be sitting in the House of Commons and then eventually having the confidence of colleagues to sit in the Chair, I cannot tell you what it means, and for my family.

Mark D'Arcy: We're back. And Ruth, I thought that was absolutely fascinating. It was a really interesting in-depth account of how the person in the Chair goes about managing the chamber in much more detail really than I've heard from almost anybody else ever.

Ruth Fox: Yeah, it was very good on, on the atmospherics and, and what she's thinking about and how she thinks about managing the, the Chamber.

Which MPs she's, well, she didn't name them, but we, we can guess from the budget debate, but which MP she's looking for in the Chamber who may be, uh, I think in her terms, you know, naughty antics. We [00:35:00] did rather, I should say, Mark, we did rather or rather you did rather- ... put her on the spot about whether this is an audition for, for the next speakership once Lindsay Hoyle decides to stand down.

Mark D'Arcy: I do recall actually once asking Lindsay Hoyle very much the same question when he was the Senior Deputy Speaker and chairing budgets in the John Bercow era, and sitting speakers never really like the idea of their tenure coming to an end. You know, Deputy Speakers always have to be very, very careful what they say, and, uh, Nusrat there was very, very careful what she said.

But it is a live discussion.

Ruth Fox: It is, yes.

Mark D'Arcy: In Westminster, people are beginning to speculate about the next reign. It's just the way of things. It's, you know, Prime Ministers have this problem if they've been around long enough to have a succession crisis.

Ruth Fox: Yeah, I mean, just in the last week, two people have asked me about it or have commented on it. That's a sign that it is a live issue, and people are beginning to think about it, which is not unsurprising. He's been Speaker since 2019. Yeah. And if he gets [00:36:00] through the next general election, he'd be looking at 10 years. You know, you're into Bercow level territory there in terms of the length of tenure.

Mark D'Arcy: And frankly, a lot of people felt John Bercow went on several years too long. And I think it was Betty Boothroyd was saying that he really shouldn't go on as long as this, and it just becomes very difficult to let go the longer you go on.

Ruth Fox: Yeah. And inevitably, with the, the next general election, who knows, it could be within the next year, It could be two years away. But inevitably, what his position will be and how he approaches whether he goes before the election or after the election has implications for the successor, has implications because you really want a House of MPs who know the candidates. And therefore, the timing of the, the speakership is important. So I fully understand why the incumbent might not be very comfortable with their position being discussed, but I'm afraid that's, uh-

Mark D'Arcy: Well, show business ...

Ruth Fox: that's the politics of it, yeah.

Mark D'Arcy: Absolutely. One thing, of course, we didn't get from the Chair, either the Speaker or from Nusrat Ghani, was any [00:37:00] kind of admonition about, uh, pre-budget leaking.

Some details of the budget floating around, perhaps not on the scale of other recent budgets, but there were details floating around, and it was a little bit surprising I think that someone didn't do a bit of finger-wagging at some point.

Ruth Fox: The bit that I thought was probably the most egregious element was when Martin Lewis, so for our international listeners, Martin Lewis is a, a former financial journalist who founded the website called moneysavingexpert.com, and essentially he's a consumer finance expert and hugely popular. I mean, in, in, in polls, you know, if you're gonna have a president of the United Kingdom, he'd probably do quite well.

Mark D'Arcy: He's one of these experts who's attained a kind of semi-divine status now- Yeah ... and is, is becoming - national treasure ... almost arbiter of things.

Ruth Fox: Yeah. And he has been campaigning for the cutting of energy bills to support families through this, this energy crisis, [00:38:00] and he has particular views about what measures should be taken.

And because he's got this website and he's got a huge newsletter list, I mean, you know, transparency, I'm signed up to his newsletter and get his weekly missives. There's huge reach there from a communications perspective. And the Chancellor apparently invited him in on the morning of the budget for a meeting at 7:00 am in the Treasury at which was discussed what the energy announcements were going to be.

Now, I completely understand why you might want to do that with somebody who does have a, a journalistic background, but ultimately it's a website that he now runs from which he generates income. So, you know, there's a financial interest here as well. But he invited him in, told him the information, and then it doesn't seem to have been embargoed, or if it was, or if the assumption was that it would be embargoed, he didn't adhere to it. But he basically went on social media immediately after he left the Treasury and detailed what he'd been told. [00:39:00] So in effect, that announcement about the energy support was announced to the country through social media rather than to Parliament.

Mark D'Arcy: And there were no consequences for this. No. I don't know, maybe Martin Lewis is now seen as part of the dignified section of the constitution, and it is therefore permissible to give him details of the budget.

Ruth Fox: Well, it's not really, is it?

Mark D'Arcy: Well, I'm being sarcastic. Yes. Yeah, but, uh, but yeah, it does seem a bit remarkable that that went off with barely any kind of finger-wagging or admonition at all from the Chair. Another thing the Chair might have got involved in, but it's more a case of the dog that didn't bark, is the strange case of Nigel Farage.

The, uh, Reform Party leader wasn't in the Chamber for the budget, and later announced that the reason he wasn't there was that the prayer card reserving a seat for him had been removed, and he didn't want to get involved in a physical altercation with other MPs in order to get a seat in the chamber.

Now, this strikes me as a downright bizarre tale to be honest. You heard [00:40:00] it discussed actually a little bit, uh, not the case of Nigel Farage, but the general principle of MPs reserving seats with prayer cards in our, in our talk with Nusrat Ghani earlier. But that procedure is something a lot of MPs go through, particularly for things like the budget, often very early in the morning.

But anyway, Nigel Farage somehow or other did not have a seat reserved for him. Now, I don't know what would have stopped him just going into the Chamber and sitting in his customary place on the opposition benches and daring anybody to tell him to move on. But he obviously was a bit worried about there being some kind of territorial dispute, apparently with Liberal Democrat MPs sitting nearby.

Ruth Fox: Yeah, it's, it's all very strange, isn't it? I mean, apparently there was a prayer card in his seat for him, but apparently, according to the reports, it wasn't dated. They are supposed to be dated for the, for the relevant sitting time. And importantly, you, you have to also attend the prayer session. Now, you don't have to pray. But you have to attend that prayer session in order to reserve your seat for the [00:41:00] rest of the day. So the card went in on the seat, but it wasn't appropriately dated, and he didn't apparently attend prayers. So I think he seems to have been under the impression that, or, or he conveyed in his comments, that another MP had removed the card.

Well, it sounds like it was actually the officials removed the card because it wasn't proper. It wasn't procedurally done correctly.

Mark D'Arcy: I don't know if we're ever going to quite get to the bottom of this. No. But this kind of communicates a certain fragility, which is not the image I think Nigel Farage and Reform want.

And frankly, on an occasion like this, the budget, one of the big parliamentary moments of any year, it's a bit precious to be hiding behind something like that when you should be in the Chamber and should be giving a reaction. And it was left to his deputy, Richard Tice, who's admittedly Reform's principal financial spokesperson in the Chamber, to do the budget response.

And Ed Davey responded for the Lib Dems, Kemi Badenoch responded for the Conservatives, [00:42:00] and frankly, I suspect that there would've been more attention paid to Reform's response to the budget if it had been delivered in the Chamber by Nigel Farage.

Ruth Fox: Yeah. The, the thing is, of course, though, he would've been quite low down the pecking order as a leader of a smaller party, and he had a press conference scheduled, which I suspect would've clashed in terms of the timings.

Mark D'Arcy: That's by, by the by for me. You know, that's one of the problems that you get on these occasions, but I think delivering something in the Chamber might have had a great deal more impact with the public than a more junior member of your party speaking for you. With the best will in the world, Nigel Farage is a better communicator than Richard Tice.

Ruth Fox: Yeah. Well, we may never quite get to the bottom of it. But it's also interesting that he, he implied that he'd had a previous altercation with another MP without naming them, which if that's the case, and if that's a problem, then that ought to be something that he's taking up with the Speaker's office but not just announcing it in press conferences or on social media.

Mark D'Arcy: Indeed. I, well, I suppose it's entirely possible that he has put in a complaint to the chair.

I mean, if [00:43:00] you think back to, I think it was, uh, the 2015 general election when an enormous SNP contingent of MPs was returned for the first time. There were quite a long-running border dispute on the front bench of the opposition benches below the gangway, which the SNP had taken over as the main third party, except for the fact that the traditional seat of Dennis Skinner was on one of those benches. And the Beast of Bolsover and the SNP MPs near him had quite a snappy time of it before eventually some kind of mildly dignified resolution was eventually agreed.

Ruth Fox: A truce.

Well, what happens next then, Mark? As we were talking to Nusrat over in the, the Palace, the sitting day was just beginning, and therefore the second day of substantive debate on the budget. There's another couple of days debate next week on Monday and Tuesday, which will be on particular themes. I suspect defence may be one of them, but we, we're waiting for those

Mark D'Arcy: I'm pretty sure defence is going to crop up.

Ruth Fox: Yeah, we're waiting for those to be confirmed. After the [00:44:00] budget, the Chancellor moved that, that Provisional Collection of Taxes motion that gave provisional cover to three of the measures on Wednesday.

So they have taken for a temporary period, uh, immediate effect on stamp duty on land tax, a couple of measures, and VAT on electric vehicle charging.

So those are already in place pending, uh, formal approval next week and then in the, in the Finance Bill. We talked at the beginning of the, of the pod about this being an itty-bitty budget and lots of different but small measures.

They need 108 motions, Ways and Means motions. Well, they call them the Budget Resolutions. I mean, I was always taught it was a motion before, and when it was approved, it was a resolution of the House, so I always think this is a bit confusing. But so they call them Budget Resolutions, but 108 of them will have to be approved by Tuesday evening next week.

Mark D'Arcy: And they're all voted on pretty much as a job lot really, aren't they?

Ruth Fox: Yeah,

Mark D'Arcy: There aren't 108 separate votes.

Ruth Fox: No. [00:45:00] And what will happen is that I suspect that ... So it depends what the opposition want to force a division on, in the House. What kinds of measures. I mean, an obvious one, one can imagine that they perhaps might want to vote on is, is the, the mansion tax proposals and, and the, some of the other provisions that they'll not be happy with. So they may push for a, a separate vote on those. But, but where you've got dozens of motions and there's no chance that the opposition's gonna win the vote, and the opposition's not concerned to, to force a formal division and, and make the MPs walk through the lobbies, so it'll be taken on the, the nod. Usually the Chair will take some of those motions together to save time. So you might hear the chair say, you know, "The question is that motions," I don't know, "42 to 63 be agreed to." And they're taken-

Mark D'Arcy: And everyone shouts aye. Yeah. And Bob's your uncle really.

Ruth Fox: Yeah.

Mark D'Arcy: But Ruth, all your Christmases have come at once.

Because buried amongst all these Ways and Means motions, you found a treasure without price.

Ruth Fox: I did. [00:46:00] And listeners, it's about delegated legislation.

Mark D'Arcy: Which as you're about to point out is your favorite subject.

Ruth Fox: My favorite subject, yes. So this is Ways and Means Motion 102, so you've got to get, you see I've had to scroll down through the book.

Mark D'Arcy: Ruth reads these so you don't have to, listeners

Ruth Fox: And it's titled Advanced Tax Clearances Parliamentary Procedure for Regulation. So the, the, the hint was there. But it's interesting, all that the Ways and Means Motion said is that provision may be made altering the parliamentary procedure for regulations under Section 2731B of the Finance Act 2026.

So what does that mean? Well, essentially they've tucked away in here the fact that they want to widen access to what's called advanced tax certainty for investment projects, so big high worth investment projects. But alongside that, they want to reduce the parliamentary scrutiny for future changes to the eligibility rules.[00:47:00]

Now, bearing in mind that those provisions were only made in the Finance Act last time, so earlier this year when the Finance Bill became an act from after the last budget, that motion doesn't spell out what's intended. You've actually got to go to the Treasury's Budget 2026 Overview of Tax Legislation and Rates document.

I'm not kidding.

Mark D'Arcy: Yeah. Always remembering that with any budget there's this vast galaxy of documents and you know statistical assessments, Office for Budget Responsibility projections, all sorts of stuff gets published.

Ruth Fox: Yeah. So basically the Treasury after last year's budget have, have launched this Advanced Tax Certainty service, which was, was launched in July, and the government is planning to introduce legislation in this new Finance Bill that's coming to lower the entry threshold for qualifying projects from a billion to 300 million.

And alongside that, they're gonna move the, the procedure for further changes to the definition of what [00:48:00] qualifies as an investment project from the draft affirmative procedure, which require the Commons only, I think, 'cause it's a, it's a finance, tax related measure, to debate and approve that change before it becomes law.

They're gonna move that to the negative procedure, downgrade it, so that it, it becomes law when the minister signs it. And then you'd be into the business of if MPs didn't like it, they'd have to get a prayer motion onto the timetable of the House, which as we know is very difficult and the government controls the order paper, and then they'd have to get a motion to annul that change.

So that wouldn't happen 'cause it, it never happens. So it's just interesting using a sort of fairly neutrally worded Ways and Means Motion to change a parliamentary procedure that was agreed in the previous Finance Act process. It's not clear from the wording of the Ways and Means Motion that MPs are going be asked to vote on exactly what is planned. You've got to go to this other document to figure it out. But [00:49:00] there you go, listeners. MPs who are listening, check out Ways and Means Motion 102 and make sure you're comfortable with having your scrutiny options downgraded.

Mark D'Arcy: It's one of those bits in the small print of a budget that can really cause trouble later.

I don't know whether there will be trouble over this one, but it's a regular phenomenon with budgets that people finally trawl through the detail and start tripping over little mc- nuggets of change that cause real difficulty. Anyone remember the pasty tax?

Ruth Fox: Of course, yeah. And it, and it's worth saying, I mean, uh, straight out the box this morning, there are lots and lots of consultation that the government has announced on aspects of the Finance Bill, including publishing draft clauses of the Bill for consultation over the next few weeks. So if you are interested in, in certain things, people in organisations, business, you know, the, the banks, people in public affairs, they will be pouring over these draft [00:50:00] provisions with a view to submitting into the consultation and hoping that they can, uh, they can improve the technical detail of what will finally be spit out in a Finance Bill later next year.

Mark D'Arcy: The full majesty of the Finance Bill process in action. And with that, Ruth, I think we're done for today.

Ruth Fox: I think we are, yeah. So, uh, thank you everyone for listening. I'll make my usual appeal. If you're enjoying the podcast, do rate and review us on your podcast app, particularly if you're on Apple or Spotify. It really helps to grow our audience.

And, uh, if you are able to support the Hansard Society, become a member and help keep the podcast going. So you go to hansardsociety.org.uk, and you can sign up there. So we'd really appreciate your support and I'll see you next week, Mark.

Mark D'Arcy: Bye-bye.

Ruth Fox: Bye.

Outro: Parliament Matters is produced by the Hansard Society and supported by the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust. For more information, visit hansardsociety.org.uk/pm, or find us on social media @HansardSociety.