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[00:00:00] Intro: You are listening to Parliament Matters, a Hansard Society production, supported by the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust. Learn more at hansardsociety.org.uk/pm.

[00:00:17] Ruth Fox: Welcome to Parliament Matters Whipping Yarns, our series peering into the hidden world of Westminster's whips. I'm Ruth Fox.

[00:00:25] Mark D'Arcy: And I'm Mark Darcy. Our guest in this edition was one of the key players in Parliament's Brexit wars. Steve Baker spent years pushing his party and Prime Minister into holding a Brexit referendum and then more years ensuring a hard British exit from the EU.

[00:00:39] Ruth Fox: We talked to him about how he ringmastered a series of rebellions against successive party leaders without any of the powers of patronage and punishment available to government whips.

[00:00:50] Mark D'Arcy: He became known as 'Rebel Commander' and the 'Hard Man' of Brexit. I began by asking him if he regretted those nicknames.

[00:00:58] Steve Baker: I sort of regard them with a degree of intense regret and also, I'm afraid, a degree of satisfaction, but they don't give me any actual pleasure. It would have been far better if none of it had been necessary. If only Prime Ministers had chosen to do what I asked them in the first place.

[00:01:15] Mark D'Arcy: Well, you did your best to leverage them into doing it.

[00:01:18] Steve Baker: I'm afraid so.

[00:01:19] Mark D'Arcy: How did you land that role? Was it a conscious choice? Did everybody just at some meeting turn around and look at you?

[00:01:25] Steve Baker: Douglas Carswell. Douglas Carswell.

[00:01:27] We were in Room R organising the rebellion of 81 when we decided that we would have a referendum vote using the new backbench business procedures and there was going to be a votable motion and it was a three way referendum. And we knew that come the day that we didn't want a three way question, but, um, we put it down as a three way question.

[00:01:47] I'm desperately trying to remember the name of the colleague who did it. David Nuttall? David Nuttall. Of course, it was David Nuttall. I just haven't seen him for years. So it was David's lead, and David, uh, made the speech, moved the motion, and we had people who wanted to remain in the European Union who just wanted this settled, voting with us.